Text
New American Gazette: Transcript of Pete Seeger Forum
Moakley Archive and Institute
www.suffolk.edu/moakley
Title: New American Gazette: First Amendment Award Honoring Pete Seeger at Ford Hall
Forum.
Recording Date: May 15, 1988
Speakers: Pete Seeger, Charlayne Hunter-Gault
Item Information: New American Gazette: “First Amendment Award Honoring Pete Seeger,”
at Ford Hall Forum. Ford Hall Forum Collection, 1908-2013 (MS113.3.1, item 0082) Moakley
Archive, Suffolk University, Boston, MA.
Digital Versions: audio recording and transcript available at http://moakleyarchive.omeka.net
Copyright Information: Copyright © 1988 Ford Hall Forum.
Recording Summary:
Transcription of a Ford Hall Forum event that honored Pete Seeger, a singer-songwriter and
activist, with the Forum’s First Amendment Award. Seeger sang songs while discussing the
Great Peace March and the value of the First Amendment. The forum was recorded and
broadcast on the New American Gazette radio program on January 8, 1989. The program was
introduced by host Charlayne Hunter-Gault.
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Transcript Begins
ANNOUCER: From Boston, the Ford Hall Forum presents an archive edition of the New
American Gazette with guest host, Charlayne Hunter-Gault.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: When singer, songwriter and activist Pete Seeger first
addressed the Ford Hall Forum the Vietnam War was just emerging as a major issue. Student
demonstrations had only begun. Lyndon Johnson was president. Martin Luther King was at the
center of the Civil Rights Movement and Ronald Reagan was best known as the host of Death
Valley Days. It was 1967. On that occasion Mr. Seeger touched on many issues of the day, the
US War in Vietnam, the Civil Rights Movement and his concern for the environment.
[00:00:54]
When he returned to the Forum last spring to accept the First Amendment Award he was still
fighting many of the same issues, still struggling and still singing, still smiling that enigmatic
grin in the face of adversity. Pete Seeger has always given voice to the causes he believed in,
Civil Rights, labor unions, disarmament, the environment, and an end to apartheid. The Pete
Seeger we know could not exist without the freedoms of the First Amendment.
Speaking today on the value of the First Amendment and leading a spirited forum crowd in a
rousing rendition of “Amazing Grace,” while sharing his visions for the future of humanity is
Pete Seeger.
(applause)
[00:01:54]
PETE SEEGER: I’ll be speaking some prose later on but I thought I’d sing a few little poems
here.
(applause)
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[00:02:07]
Partly to, I guess, put myself at ease. Some of these songs you know perhaps.
SEEGER: (sings) How do I know my youth is all spent?
My get up and go has got up and went
But in spite of it all, I'm able to grin
When I think of the places my get up has been
Old age is golden, so I've heard said
But sometimes I wonder as I crawl into bed
With my ears in a drawer, my teeth in a cup
My eyes on the table until I wake up
As sleep dims my vision, I say to myself
Is there anything else I should lay on the shelf?
But though nations are warring and business is vexed
I'll still stick around to see what happens next
How do I know my youth is all spent?
My get up and go has got up and went
But in spite of it all, I'm able to grin
And think of the places my get up has been
When I was young, my slippers were red
I could kick up my heels right over my head
When I was older my slippers were blue
But still I could dance the whole night thru
Now I am older, my slippers are black
I huff to the store and I puff my way back
But never you laugh, I don't mind at all
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I'd rather be huffing than not puff at all.
ALL: (singing) How do I know my youth is all spent?
My get up and go has got up and went
But in spite of it all, I'm able to grin
And think of the places my get up has been
SEEGER: (sings) I get up each morning and dust off my wits
Open the paper and read the obits
If I'm not there, I know I'm not dead
So I eat a good breakfast and go back to bed
ALL: (singing) How do I know my youth is all spent?
My get up and go has got up and went
But in spite of it all, I'm able to grin
And think of the places my get up has been
(applause)
[00:05:11]
SEEGER: [reads] Three, four thousand years ago some fellow with a beard and sandals
probably, put this set of lyrics together. All I did was put a tune to it and add one line, one and a
half lines.
SEEGER: (sings) To Everything (Turn, Turn, Turn)
ALL: (singing) There is a season (Turn, Turn, Turn)
And a time for every purpose, under Heaven
SEEGER: (sings) A time to be born, a time to die
A time to plant, a time to reap
A time to kill, a time to heal
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A time to laugh, a time to weep
ALL: (singing) To Everything (Turn, Turn, Turn)
There is a season (Turn, Turn, Turn)
And a time for every purpose, under Heaven
SEEGER: (sings) A time to build up, a time to break down
A time to dance, a time to mourn
A time to cast away stones, a time to gather stones together
ALL: (singing)To Everything (Turn, Turn, Turn)
There is a season (Turn, Turn, Turn)
And a time for every purpose, under Heaven
SEEGER: (sings) A time of love, a time of hate
A time of war, a time of peace
A time you may embrace, a time to refrain from embracing
ALL: (singing)To Everything (Turn, Turn, Turn)
There is a season (Turn, Turn, Turn)
And a time for every purpose, under Heaven
[00:07:35]
SEEGER: Some people are singing very well. But there’s—I can see, even though I’m not good
at seeing that some people are—(laughter)—Preserving their academic objectivity.
(laughter)
SEEGER: (sings) A time to gain, a time to lose
A time to rend, a time to sew
A time of love, a time of hate
A time of peace, (all singing) I swear it's not too late
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ALL: (singing) To Everything (Turn, Turn, Turn)
There is a season (Turn, Turn, Turn)
And a time for every purpose, under Heaven
[00:08:31]
SEEGER: Oh, sing it again
ALL: (singing) To Everything (Turn, Turn, Turn)
There is a season (Turn, Turn, Turn)
And a time for every purpose, under Heaven.
(applause)
[00:09:06]
SEEGER: I count myself one of the luckiest musicians in the world, one of luckiest people in
the world. You’re quite right. I would have been jailed—in jail if it hadn’t been for the First
Amendment. In 1955 I was questioned by the House Un-American Activities Committee. And I
didn’t cooperate with them. I simply said, “I think these are questions no American should be
forced to answer, especially under threat of reprisal if you give the wrong answer.” And every
time they asked me another question I said, “Same answer.”
So after three-quarters of an hour they said, “We don’t consider this a good answer and you may
be cited for contempt of Congress. And I think I shrugged.
(applause)
[00:09:54]
I—well—I—they said, “Aren’t you courageous?” I was just doing what came naturally, I feel. I
had a good upbringing, some wonderful parents and grandparents. And even when we disagreed
we had a right to argue. Had some good schools and good teachers I went to. So I was very, very
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lucky. And I had—my own family stuck up for me. And then I had friends who could help pay
for the lawyer. It took about $15,000 dollars. Not to—for the lawyer but so much as all the
printing of the court records and so on, the transcripts and everything. It takes a huge amount of
money. I didn’t know, justice isn’t cheap.
And—but I was acquitted by the appeals court. I was sentence to a jail for a year. Only spent
four hours behind bars while my lawyer was getting bail money. I learned a folk song while I
was there.
[00:10:59]
They gave—handed out a lunch of a baloney sandwich and an apple. And the guy next to me
was opening his sandwich and singing: (sings) “If that judge believes what I say, I’ll be leaving
for home today.” Guy next to him says, “Not if he sees your record you won’t.”
(laughter)
No, I’m very, very lucky. And I made living my whole life, my kids never went hungry. And in
the little town where I live, a conservative little upstate New York community, 13,000 people,
the head of the local hardware store, I was building a house for myself, around that, for my
family, which we lived in, have lived in all these years. And he said, “Well, young feller, I don't
know what your opinion is but it’s America. You got a right to your opinion.” And I know he
voted for Goldwater. But he is what I call an old-fashioned conservative.
[00:12:00]
Yes, all of us are lucky, every single one of us for having—thank Thomas Jefferson and Madison
and the others who insisted on putting that First Amendment in. You know—I guess you know
from the history of the Constitution, that this group of rather extraordinary people, they’re mostly
wealthy men, slave owners from the South and merchants from the North. But some of them
were scholars like Madison and some of them were philosophers like Franklin. And after arguing
bitterly, bitterly, they made compromise after compromise and had checks and balances all
through that.
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They weren’t able to get a Bill of Rights written into the Constitution. It couldn’t be agreed on.
So Madison and Jefferson and some of the others said, “Well, we’ll see about that. And they
got—when it came to the states it had to be ratified. And state after state said, “We won’t ratify it
unless you promise to put a Bill of Rights on it right away.” So within a year it got the ten
additional amendments.
[00:13:10]
And that first one I guess you could say was the most important one. I guess some judge said, “If
there is any one, fixed star in our firmament it’s that First Amendment.” I just kind of did not say
the soul of the—that extraordinary piece of paper, a very conservative piece of paper in many
ways. It was not a revolutionary document—trying to see if they wouldn’t need to have
revolutions again.
I’ve been to countries where they do have censors and they didn’t have—I sang in Spain once. I
was—I never thought I’d sing in Spain under Francisco Franco but some people said, “It would
encourage us if you’d come over.” So I sang. One censor had to pass every song that I was going
to sing, the complete words of every song. A different censor passed the words, which were
going to printed in the program, although they’re the same songs. Because it was printed the law
said that a different bureau was in charge of anything printed.
[00:14:17]
These two censors didn’t always agree. I could sing something but couldn’t be printed. Or
something could be printed but I couldn’t sing.
(laughter)
And it was a joke, a terrible joke, a 40-year joke until Franco was gone and they abolished those
rules. I went back to Spain a few day—years later and was able to sing any song I wanted to. I’ve
been, I’ve sung in about 35 other countries of the world, never had anything—experience like
that no matter where I went, anybody telling me what to sing. Of course, there’s always
discussion of what to sing but nobody telling me what to sing. And—
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[00:15:01]
This is really what I’m—thought I’d talk about because let’s not kid ourselves, I don’t think a
single one of us would want to see such freedom of expression that our children or we would
actually be endangered. And it’s real, big, hot arguments now. I’ve censored things. Well, I’ve
been an editor. I don't know really where to draw a line between a censor and an editor. I’ve put
out books of folk songs. And when I came across some of the old folk songs that were very racist
I didn’t put them in, or changed a word here that even—you rarely see, “Oh, Susanna,” put in as
it was originally made, “I’s gwyne to Alabama.” You say, “I’m going to Alabama.”
But the person who really put me onto that was Woodie Guthrie. Woodie had been raised in a
racist atmosphere, a small town in Oklahoma. His father once precip—participated in a lynching.
But Woodie cut loose from his father and went out to California, was singing his Okie songs on a
little radio station. I think he was paid one dollar day, which was pretty good pay in those days.
And he sang an old minstrel show full of that so-called darkie dialect.
[00:16:43]
And he got a letter from a black man the next day who said, “Mr. Guthrie, I believe you mean
well but—or else I wouldn’t bother writing. But I wonder if you realize that that song you sang,”
and he identified it, “is deeply offensive to me and a lot of others like me.” And he went into
detail why. Well, Woodie read the man’s letter on the air after he received it. He said, “Now,
folks,” he says, “I just read you the man’s letter. Now I got in my hand that song I sang to you
the other day. I want you to listen carefully.” (ripping noise)
(laughter)
My guess is we wouldn’t be here if we didn’t in some way use our power to editorialize. If you
had a three-year old girl do you start discussing what rape is with her at that age? No, you wait a
few years. She has to—she must learn sooner or later but you don’t introduce it—I’ve got a
seven-year old grandson who is part African. Am I going to go into detail what a lynching is for
this seven-year old boy?
[00:18:13]
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And so I say that—I once wrote a letter to the editor of the Progressive magazine and said,
“Don’t you realize all editors are basically censors?” You know what A.J. Liebling said when he
wrote the book about the press. He said, “There’s freedom of the press for the person who owns
it.”
(laughter)
Oh, he didn’t go for that at all. He said, “Look,” he said, “censor is something the government
does. I’m an editor.” He didn’t agree with me. But you know what—you remember Justice
Holmes’ famous line was, “Freedom of speech doesn’t give you a right to shout ‘Fire’ in a
crowded theater.” And this world today is full of ever more crowded theaters. What are we going
to do?
[00:19:08]
I think we want to try not to be hypocritical. Let’s face it. We’ve got some very hard decisions to
make. There are some contradictions we face. We don’t want children to have their lives warped
by the wrong kind of information at the wrong time. On the other hand, I don’t think, frankly, a
censor is the way to handle it. Frank Zappa, a musician out on the West Coast is fervently
fighting hard to see that they don’t label phonograph records with the letter R and PG and all
that. It’s kind of silly anyway.
You see the cartoon, the record store owner has got one section full of the R records and over
here the PG records. Nobody is over there buying them. All the people are at the other end of the
store. He said, “Boy! Sales have never been so good.”
(laughter)
[00:20:17]
We want to see freedom of information. We wouldn’t want to see information on how people
could unlock our cars when we lock them on the street. That’s why I sang, “Turn. Turn. Turn.” I
think what’s true and false is often, depends on when—let me take a minute or two to tell you
about one of the extraordinary achievements of the last few years in America, which I don’t
think was widely enough publicized. It was such an extraordinary achievement that I wish it had
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been on the—in the headlines every single day, for nine months as this group of 500 or more
people walked from California to Washington. They called themselves the Great Peace March.
In February 1986 a thousand people had been enticed of this thing by some—a lot of Hollywood
hype, too much. And they found—got—walked for a couple weeks. And they are on the desert,
camped out near Barstow, California when the organization that got them all together went
bankrupt. Their support vehicles were taken by the creditors. There they were, camped out in the
desert. Five hundred went home. Said, “We can’t, this is a fiasco. No hope.”
[00:21:43]
The other 500 said, “Somehow we’re going to make it.” And they got on the telephone. Some of
them mortgaged their homes or their cars or something. And two weeks later they started off. It
wasn’t the money that was the horrendous problem. They woke up to the realization they
disagreed more than they could have believed. They had devoutly religious people on this march,
Catholics, Protestants, Jews. They had devoutly anti-religious people. They had people who
called themselves anarchist and people who called themselves Marxists and all sorts of people.
They had gay lib male and gay lib female. And they had families. There was a school for 40 kids
that had—went—followed the whole trip, kindergarten through high school. And the older
people were always saying to the younger people, “Can’t you dress a little more respectably?
We’re trying to prove that peace is not something to be frightened of and we walk in there
looking like a bunch of kooks.”
[00:22:46]
And next day a bunch of men all walked—oh, yes, they said, “Can’t the women wear dresses, for
example.” The next day a bunch of men all walked wearing dresses.
(laughter)
They ended up having to have three chow lines, carnivores, veggies, and macro biotics.
(laughter)
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The made a number of very important decisions, though. One of them was, they said, “Let’s have
frequent elections.” They voted for their governing body. And every week or two they’d have
another election in case they changed their minds. Even more important they said, “Let’s not use
Robert’s Rules of Order, unless we have to. Let’s try and make decisions by consensus. You
know it’s, Robert’s Rules speed things up but we’ve got a lot of time to talk.” And they did. They
talked and walked and they walked and they talked for nine months.
[00:23:45]
And they didn’t—weren’t able to make all the decision by consensus but most of them. But the
most important decision they made, “Let’s not turn each other off. Let’s agree that we’ll never
stop listening to each other no matter how mad we get at each other.” You know, that one thing
was the most important of all because it was hard to break them up. If they had ever gotten so
mad they would talk to each other, then a provocateur could have easily split them up into two or
more groups. They never would have got to Washington. But they agreed no matter how mad
they got at each other they would always listen.
Curiously enough one of the most effective things was a young German who, about threequarters of the way through the trip walked around with a piece of tape on this mouth. He could
only eat by putting a straw through his mouth. And they’d say, “Heinrich, what’s that for?” He’s
show them a card. I will not take this tape off until I see at least 100 people walking together. We
are too spread out.”
[00:24:45]
He forced the issue to be discussed. Some people liked to get up early. They would walk. Some
people walked later. They were spread out over ten miles along the road. It didn’t look like a
great peace march. Finally, after a month of arguing they came to a compromise. They would
bunch up in the cities but they’d stay spread out in the countryside. And curiously enough when
they came into Washington, even the transvestites start wearing normal clothes.
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And I think that just as they got to Washington that you and I and our families have got a chance
that this human race will survive and that life on earth will survive if we can work our way out of
some of the contradictions.
[00:25:41]
The biggest contradiction right now is one that I’m really not supposed to be entitled to talk
about. I’m not a scientist. I’ve joked a lot about science. And said a long time ago people had
more time before they inven—had so many labor saving devices.
(laughter)
My father, though, who was an old scholar, the last few years of his life he was almost hipped on
this subject. He said, “I’m concerned with value judgements. How do people make value
judgements? What’s good and what’s bad?” And then he realized, he said, “I realized that most
scientists insist that science is neutral. There is no such thing as good or bad science. Science is
science. It’s the jobs done with science that could be good or bad.”
[00:26:41]
And most scientists say it’s nothing but good to have an ever-increasing store of empirical
knowledge. “Ah,” said my father, “if the world were destroyed by the misuse of that knowledge,
could you then say it was a good thing to have been a scientist?” It throws them for a loop. “You
have no right to ask that question. Ask it of anybody but don’t ask it of me.” He insisted on
asking it. And I think he was right to ask it. To me it seems a logical question.
It’s true. Nothing in this world is good or bad but the thinking makes it so. That’s what Hamlet
said to Horatio and I agree. But we’re thinking people. I think anyone of us has a right to think
that science is bad if it puts us in danger of our lives. Einstein himself is supposed to have said,
“Ach! Mankind is not ready for it.” Does that mean that E = MC2 is bad science? Perhaps. And I
tell you how I work it out. I decide that science out of sequence is, is bad.
[00:27:51]
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Now normally in any project you want to have a sequence of steps. You get the—you plan what
you want to do. You number the steps you are going to take. You assemble the tools. You
assemble the materials. You do the job. You test that the job is properly done. Now thalidomide
and the Dalkon Shield are two recent examples of science out of sequence. They put some on the
market before sufficient testing.
Vonnegut, Kurt Vonnegut thinks that there is no hope for us because we have too big brains. I
guess some of you read his book Galapagos. But I think that’s like saying there’s no hope
because we’re—some people are over sexed or there’s no hope because some people are
avaricious and power hungry. He’s saying there’s no hope because people are curious. And I’m
convinced that if this world survives it will be because we face up to this contradiction.
ANNOUNCER: From Boston you have been listening to an archive edition of the New
American Gazette presented by the Ford Hall Forum.
[00:29:17]
SEEGER: There’s hardly a scientist in the world who will go along with this. They say science
is neutral. I sent a copy of this little idea to George Wald, the Nobel Prize winning biologist. And
he sent me a copy of a paper he’d written some years ago. He say, “I used to think I knew the
answer to that question.” And he sent me this paper. He implied that now he’s not sure.
He said, “Is science amoral, the changing ethics of science? I happen to be one of those scientist
who think there is something wrong with napalming peasants. And a few years ago began to
wonder from what base, from what vantage point may a scientist make moral and political
judgements?” And that is what I want to talk about today. In a sense it is my religion, the holy
secular religion of one scientist. Mankind has been engaged throughout history in a ceaseless
struggle to know. Science is a systematic attempt to understand all reality.
[00:30:25]
Reality covers a very wide province, not only such simple things as stones falling and the
structures of atomic nuclei but more complicated things such as poets writing sonnets and people
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praying. Some of those more complicated things I doubt science will ever understand. I used to
think a few years ago, and this question is more current now—I’d find myself in a room full of
physicists and raise the question, should one do everything one can. That seemed to be a new
question then that very few persons had asked. And as soon as you asked it, it seemed as though
to answer, in most person’s mind was, “Yes, of course. Do everything you can.” But the right
answer clearly is, of course, not.
Among all the things one can do, one needs to make a choice of the things that it is good to do,
those things that satisfy the needs and goals and aspirations of one’s society. Who is to make
those judgments?
[00:31:25]
One of our most serious troubles now is that we’ve grown used to having those judgments made
the wrong way. We’ve grown used to having those judgments made almost entirely by the
producers of the technology, by those who see a way to make a profit from it, achieve increased
power through it, or perhaps increase status through it. One should listen carefully to all such
persons. But it is of the utmost importance that those decisions cease to be made by the
producers and begin to be made by those who will have to live with the products, you and me.
I’d mentioned in my letter to George, “What are you going to do about recombinant DNA?” I
don’t really like what I read of Jeremy Rifken. He seems awful, kind of tunnel vision. And I
suspect all tunnel vision whether in scientists or housewives or musicians. But I think he’s gone
onto to something. What would Hitler do if he knew all about recombinant DNA? Have some
scientists work out a bacteria that would kill every dark-skinned person in the world? I don't
know.
[00:32:41]
George said, “My wife and I fought hard against recombinant DNA as a technology. It could
solve certain important biological problems all of us wanted answered but not in that way, not by
messing up three billion years of evolution. We have three, top operators in this field in our
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department at Harvard, each with his own corporation.” Profit-making corporation, I presume.
Harvard has just patented a mouse. The patent covers that kind of manipulation in all animals.
No doctor can cure a patient unless the patient is willing to admit their sick. The first step in
solving any problem is a admitting there is a problem. And my own little paper said, of course
it’s going to take a lot of time, perhaps hundreds of years, perhaps thousands of years to argue
these questions out properly. But what’s that compared to 16 million years before the next
nemesis planet visits us or five billion years till the sun puts an end to the watery planet. Let’s
argue about it. I believe that only lazy people and bad scientists will shy away from such
arguments.
[00:34:21]
Well, I’ve talked long enough and I thought maybe stopping. How long have I kept on, about 25
minutes? I’m going to sing a couple of songs, different kinds.
I’m going to sing an old hymn. Many of you have heard it before. Maybe you don’t know who—
it was written by a sea captain. Of all things this sea captain was a captain of a slave ship. It was
about 200 years ago. The man had been a rank and file seaman and he rose through the ranks,
become a captain. Now he’s a captain and the owners went into the slave trade. The man’s name
was John Newton. This happened about 100 years ago in the middle of the ocean once he turned
his ship 180 degrees around and took those people back to their homes. He went back to
England, became a preacher. And this is just one of the many hymns he wrote.
[00:35:32]
Arlo Guthrie told me this story. He said, “That man is a friend of mine today. That was a long
time ago but he is a friend of mine because he showed us, we can turn the ship around.”
(applause)
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Now some people sing this hymn faster than I do. But I do what they call long-meter style, which
is an old-fashioned southern style of singing. No matter how slow we go, don’t stop singing, just
take a new breath and keep on going. No one will know the difference.
[00:36:10]
SEEGER: Amazing grace, how sweet the sound.
ALL: (singing) Amazing grace.
SEEGER: You’re going too fast.
(laughter)
SEEGER: I’m still on A.
ALL: (singing) Amazing grace,
SEEGER: Where’s the tenors and sopranos?
ALL: (singing) Grace, how sweet—
SEEGER: Where’s the basses? Where the basses and the altos?
ALL: (singing) —the sound
SEEGER: (singing) That saved a wretch like me
ALL: (singing) That saved a wretch—
SEEGER: Where’s the bass part?
ALL: (singing) —Like me.
SEEGER: (singing) I once was lost but now am found
ALL: (singing) I once was lost but now—
SEEGER: Where’s the basses and where’s the altos?
ALL: (singing) I’m found.
SEEGER: (singing) Was blind but now I see.
ALL: (singing) Was blind—
SEEGER: Where’s the bass part?
ALL: (singing) —but now I see.
SEEGER: Shall I be wafted to the sky
ALL: (singing) Shall I be wafted to the sky
SEEGER: On flowery beds of ease
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ALL: (singing) On flowery beds of ease
SEEGER: While others strive to win the prize
ALL: (singing) While others strive to win the prize
SEEGER: And sail through bloody seas
ALL: (singing) And sail—
SEEGER: Don’t hear those basses.
ALL: (singing) —Through bloody seas.
[00:40:00]
SEEGER: We don’t have quite enough basses. I think it’s because that was in too low a key.
We’re going to raise up a little higher. Let’s try that first verse again. Remember, there’s no such
thing as a wrong note as long as you’re singing.
(applause)
SEEGER: Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
ALL: (singing) Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
SEEGER: That saved a wretch like me
ALL: (singing) That saved a wretch like me
SEEGER: I once was lost but now I’m found
ALL: (singing) I once was lost but now I’m found
SEEGER: Was blind but now I see
ALL: (singing) Was blind but now I see.
(applause)
[00:42:27]
SEEGER: Incidentally, I had a whole lot of things I was going to say to you but I didn’t get the
time to say them. I was going to say that, remember Ben Franklin’s great line, “Love your
enemies”. They teach to you your faults.” Remember Rabbi Hillel about 2,000 years ago with
three short lines of wisdom, “If I am not for myself, who will be. If I’m only for myself, what am
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I? If not now, when?” Remember the English philosopher, Alfred North Whitehead. I once saw
him give a lecture when I was at Harvard. He says, “One should try not to speak more clearly
than one thinks.”
(laughter)
This is one I also remember. In 1957 the great Soviet novelist Ilya Ehrenburg was in Buenos
Aires. And a newspaper reporter asked him, “Mr. Ehrenburg, how do you account for the terrible
things that went on under Stalin?” This was only a year after Khrushchev gave his speech about
Stalin. Ehrenburg said, “Well, we found it was easier to get rid of the capitalists than to get rid of
the damn fools.”
(laughter)
[00:44:14]
When you think globally and act locally, sometimes maybe very, very local—E.B. White wrote a
little poem when he had to go away on another trip. And he gave it to his wife.
(sings) The spider, dropping down from twig,
Unfolds a plan of her devising,
A thin premeditated rig
To use in rising.
And all that journey down through space,
In cool defense and loyal hearted,
She spins a ladder to the place
From where she started.
Thus I, gone forth as spiders do
In spider's web a truth discerning,
Attach one silken strand to you
For my returning.
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MS113.0082 Transcript
[00:46:02]
SEEGER: Before I go I’m going to sing the most recent song I’ve been able to put together. The
tune, actually, I’ve had for almost 25 years. I whistle it mostly. About 25 years ago I learned how
to flutter with (whistles). It’s not hard. What you do is pull your tongue back and then you push,
you, well you flatten your tongue so the sides of your tongue touch the sides of your lower teeth
and front of your tongue is the back of your front teeth on the bottom. So, in effect, your tongue
cuts off, all of a sudden, a little bit of air at the bottom. So instead of being this (whistles). You
don’t do like that, because that’s your just brining the middle of your tongue up to the roof of
your mouth.
(laughter)
You keep your tongue far away from the roof of your mouth (whistles). It becomes broad.
[00:46:56]
AUDIENCE: (whistling)
(laughter)
SEEGER: (whistles). Anyway I whistle this tune.
(whistles) I even had an idea for a music video of this.
(laughter)
I sent it, the idea, into Sesame Street but they didn’t reply. I don’t, I don’t know. I called for a
little roly-poly guy who is really a dancer walking down the street whistling this tune maybe
kicking at a garbage can in rhythm as he goes down. And a kid sitting on a stoop sees him and
grins. And the man sticks out his hand and the kid grabs it. And then another kid joins him. By
the time they get to the edge of, end of this one little melody, it only takes 34 seconds I know,
because I timed it, they’ve got three or four kids there.
[00:48:19]
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All of a sudden they come to one of these little graveyards like you can sometimes see in an old
city like Boston or Philadelphia or New York, in between two brick buildings, there’s a little
graveyard. And the camera zooms in on a grave stone. Maybe says, “Katerina von Trump. Born
18—1790. Died 1795.” The kids look at it and they suddenly grow serious. And the man sings.
(sings) Whistling past a graveyard is not a foolish thing
When all of the world appears to be coming apart at the seam.
And who can tell for sure what’ll be next to go.
Did you ever think that Tricky Dick would leave like he did?
Whistling past a graveyard, I’ll keep on whistling.
And if you want you can whistle along.
For who knows just how many more might like to try the melody
And whistle a similar song.
(whistles)
And whistle a similar song.
[00:49:22]
SEEGER: And now the little guy starts down the street again with the kids. And they’re
whistling this tune. And they turn a corner and suddenly instead of city street there’s the Eiffel
tower there and a bunch of French kids come out to join them. They turn the corner and there’s a
pagoda there and a bunch of Chinese or Japanese kids come out to join them. They turn a corner,
there’s the pyramid of Egypt and some Egyptian kids come out to join them. They turn a corner
and there’ St. Basel’s cathedral, a bunch of Russian kids come out to join them. They turn a
corner there’s a pueblo out in New Mexico. A bunch of Native American kids come out to join
them.
[00:49:57]
All of a sudden there is Sugarloaf Mountain in Rio de Janeiro. And a bunch of black Brazilian
kids come out to join them. Now there’s 50 or 100 kids all gathered around. And now they’re on
the beach. Laurie Wyatt lives over in Northampton helped me write this verse. He did most of it.
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(sings) Whistling by the seashore upon a windy day.
A look at the breakers trying to drown out my song.
The sea gulls laugh as they glide past
And sand castles all around come tumbling down
Whistling by the seashore, I’ll keep on whistling
And if you want you can whistle along
The ocean may be wide but on the other side
There’s lots of people whistling a similar song.
(whistles)
Oh, you know what? This is what you can do on video. There’s a cutaway to a woman in Japan
in elegant costume playing the Koto (makes sound). And then—
(sings) —whistling a similar song.
There’s a cutaway to a family in Guatemala, all playing one marimba (makes sound).
(sings) Whistling a similar song.
It goes to a European symphony orchestra all in white tie and tails (makes sound)
(sings) Whistling a similar song.
Maybe in India where they have these tuned tea cups (makes sound)
(sings) Whistling a similar song.
[00:51:24]
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SEEGER: Maybe some steel drums. Lord know what they have. Finally, the last time it’s the
birds in the tree. You can do this if you cut up the tape and scissor it and do tricks with it. And
the birds are all singing (whistles).
(sings) Whistling a similar song.
SEEGER: And the last thing you hear is the ocean wave (makes sound).
Well, if anybody wants to try whistling this tune with me, you’re welcome to try it tonight before
we go home. You’ll find it’s a lot of fun, although people will sometimes look at you and say,
“What you so happy about?” Try it.
(all whistling)
(applause)
MODERATOR: Thank you. Thank you. Pete Seeger.
(applause)
[00:53:37]
SEEGER:
(sings) One blue sky above us
One ocean lapping all our shore
One earth so green and round
Who could ask for more?
SEEGER: And because I love you
ALL: (singing) And because I love you
SEEGER: I’ll give it one more try
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ALL: (singing) I’ll give it one more try.
SEEGER: To show my rainbow race
ALL: (singing) To show my rainbow race
SEEGER: It's too soon to die.
ALL: (singing) It’s too soon to die.
SEEGER: (sings) Some folks want to be like an ostrich,
Bury their heads in the sand.
Some hope that plastic dreams
Can unclench all those greedy hands.
Some hope to take the easy way:
Poisons, bombs. They think we need 'em.
Don't you know you can't kill all the unbelievers?
There's no shortcut to freedom.
SEEGER: One blue sky above us
ALL: (singing) One blue sky above us
SEEGER: One ocean lapping all our shore
ALL: (singing) One ocean lapping all our shore
SEEGER: One earth so green and round
ALL: (singing) One earth so green and round
SEEGER: Who could ask for more?
ALL: (singing) Who could ask for more?
SEEGER: And because I love you
ALL: (singing) And because I love you
SEEGER: Give it one more try
ALL: (singing) I’ll give it one more try
SEEGER: Show my rainbow race
ALL: (singing) To show my rainbow race
SEEGER: Too soon to die.
ALL: (singing) It’s too soon to die
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SEEGER: (sings) Go tell, go tell all the little children.
Tell all the mothers and fathers too.
Now's our last chance to learn to share
What's been given to me and you.
ALL: (singing) One blue sky above us
SEEGER: One ocean
ALL: (singing) One ocean lapping all our shores
SEEGER: One earth
ALL: (singing) One earth so green and round
SEEGER: Who could ask
ALL: (singing) Who could ask for more
SEEGER: And because I love you
ALL: (singing) And because I love you
SEEGER: Give it one more try
ALL: (singing) Give it one more try
SEEGER: To show my rainbow race
ALL: (singing) To show my rainbow race
SEEGER: It's too soon to die.
ALL: (singing) It’s too soon to die
[00:56:24]
SEEGER: One blue sky above us
ALL: (singing) One blue sky above us
SEEGER: One ocean
ALL: (singing) One ocean lapping all our shore
SEEGER: One earth
ALL: (singing) One earth so green and round
Who could ask for more
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MS113.0082 Transcript
(applause)
ANNOUCER: You have been listening to an archive edition of the New American Gazette from
Boston’s Ford Hall Forum. The New American Gazette was produced by Deborah Stavro with
post-production engineers Roger Baker, Brian Sabo and Anthony di Bartalo. The New American
Gazette was produced in cooperation with the nation's presidential libraries, the National
Archives and Northeastern University.
To purchase a copy of this program or receive information about the 2006 spring season of the
Forum, please call 617-373-5800 or visit www.fordhallforum.org. Thank you for joining us.
END OF RECORDING
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26
Moakley Archive and Institute
www.suffolk.edu/moakley
Title: New American Gazette: First Amendment Award Honoring Pete Seeger at Ford Hall
Forum.
Recording Date: May 15, 1988
Speakers: Pete Seeger, Charlayne Hunter-Gault
Item Information: New American Gazette: “First Amendment Award Honoring Pete Seeger,”
at Ford Hall Forum. Ford Hall Forum Collection, 1908-2013 (MS113.3.1, item 0082) Moakley
Archive, Suffolk University, Boston, MA.
Digital Versions: audio recording and transcript available at http://moakleyarchive.omeka.net
Copyright Information: Copyright © 1988 Ford Hall Forum.
Recording Summary:
Transcription of a Ford Hall Forum event that honored Pete Seeger, a singer-songwriter and
activist, with the Forum’s First Amendment Award. Seeger sang songs while discussing the
Great Peace March and the value of the First Amendment. The forum was recorded and
broadcast on the New American Gazette radio program on January 8, 1989. The program was
introduced by host Charlayne Hunter-Gault.
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MS113.0082 Transcript
Transcript Begins
ANNOUCER: From Boston, the Ford Hall Forum presents an archive edition of the New
American Gazette with guest host, Charlayne Hunter-Gault.
CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT: When singer, songwriter and activist Pete Seeger first
addressed the Ford Hall Forum the Vietnam War was just emerging as a major issue. Student
demonstrations had only begun. Lyndon Johnson was president. Martin Luther King was at the
center of the Civil Rights Movement and Ronald Reagan was best known as the host of Death
Valley Days. It was 1967. On that occasion Mr. Seeger touched on many issues of the day, the
US War in Vietnam, the Civil Rights Movement and his concern for the environment.
[00:00:54]
When he returned to the Forum last spring to accept the First Amendment Award he was still
fighting many of the same issues, still struggling and still singing, still smiling that enigmatic
grin in the face of adversity. Pete Seeger has always given voice to the causes he believed in,
Civil Rights, labor unions, disarmament, the environment, and an end to apartheid. The Pete
Seeger we know could not exist without the freedoms of the First Amendment.
Speaking today on the value of the First Amendment and leading a spirited forum crowd in a
rousing rendition of “Amazing Grace,” while sharing his visions for the future of humanity is
Pete Seeger.
(applause)
[00:01:54]
PETE SEEGER: I’ll be speaking some prose later on but I thought I’d sing a few little poems
here.
(applause)
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[00:02:07]
Partly to, I guess, put myself at ease. Some of these songs you know perhaps.
SEEGER: (sings) How do I know my youth is all spent?
My get up and go has got up and went
But in spite of it all, I'm able to grin
When I think of the places my get up has been
Old age is golden, so I've heard said
But sometimes I wonder as I crawl into bed
With my ears in a drawer, my teeth in a cup
My eyes on the table until I wake up
As sleep dims my vision, I say to myself
Is there anything else I should lay on the shelf?
But though nations are warring and business is vexed
I'll still stick around to see what happens next
How do I know my youth is all spent?
My get up and go has got up and went
But in spite of it all, I'm able to grin
And think of the places my get up has been
When I was young, my slippers were red
I could kick up my heels right over my head
When I was older my slippers were blue
But still I could dance the whole night thru
Now I am older, my slippers are black
I huff to the store and I puff my way back
But never you laugh, I don't mind at all
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I'd rather be huffing than not puff at all.
ALL: (singing) How do I know my youth is all spent?
My get up and go has got up and went
But in spite of it all, I'm able to grin
And think of the places my get up has been
SEEGER: (sings) I get up each morning and dust off my wits
Open the paper and read the obits
If I'm not there, I know I'm not dead
So I eat a good breakfast and go back to bed
ALL: (singing) How do I know my youth is all spent?
My get up and go has got up and went
But in spite of it all, I'm able to grin
And think of the places my get up has been
(applause)
[00:05:11]
SEEGER: [reads] Three, four thousand years ago some fellow with a beard and sandals
probably, put this set of lyrics together. All I did was put a tune to it and add one line, one and a
half lines.
SEEGER: (sings) To Everything (Turn, Turn, Turn)
ALL: (singing) There is a season (Turn, Turn, Turn)
And a time for every purpose, under Heaven
SEEGER: (sings) A time to be born, a time to die
A time to plant, a time to reap
A time to kill, a time to heal
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A time to laugh, a time to weep
ALL: (singing) To Everything (Turn, Turn, Turn)
There is a season (Turn, Turn, Turn)
And a time for every purpose, under Heaven
SEEGER: (sings) A time to build up, a time to break down
A time to dance, a time to mourn
A time to cast away stones, a time to gather stones together
ALL: (singing)To Everything (Turn, Turn, Turn)
There is a season (Turn, Turn, Turn)
And a time for every purpose, under Heaven
SEEGER: (sings) A time of love, a time of hate
A time of war, a time of peace
A time you may embrace, a time to refrain from embracing
ALL: (singing)To Everything (Turn, Turn, Turn)
There is a season (Turn, Turn, Turn)
And a time for every purpose, under Heaven
[00:07:35]
SEEGER: Some people are singing very well. But there’s—I can see, even though I’m not good
at seeing that some people are—(laughter)—Preserving their academic objectivity.
(laughter)
SEEGER: (sings) A time to gain, a time to lose
A time to rend, a time to sew
A time of love, a time of hate
A time of peace, (all singing) I swear it's not too late
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ALL: (singing) To Everything (Turn, Turn, Turn)
There is a season (Turn, Turn, Turn)
And a time for every purpose, under Heaven
[00:08:31]
SEEGER: Oh, sing it again
ALL: (singing) To Everything (Turn, Turn, Turn)
There is a season (Turn, Turn, Turn)
And a time for every purpose, under Heaven.
(applause)
[00:09:06]
SEEGER: I count myself one of the luckiest musicians in the world, one of luckiest people in
the world. You’re quite right. I would have been jailed—in jail if it hadn’t been for the First
Amendment. In 1955 I was questioned by the House Un-American Activities Committee. And I
didn’t cooperate with them. I simply said, “I think these are questions no American should be
forced to answer, especially under threat of reprisal if you give the wrong answer.” And every
time they asked me another question I said, “Same answer.”
So after three-quarters of an hour they said, “We don’t consider this a good answer and you may
be cited for contempt of Congress. And I think I shrugged.
(applause)
[00:09:54]
I—well—I—they said, “Aren’t you courageous?” I was just doing what came naturally, I feel. I
had a good upbringing, some wonderful parents and grandparents. And even when we disagreed
we had a right to argue. Had some good schools and good teachers I went to. So I was very, very
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lucky. And I had—my own family stuck up for me. And then I had friends who could help pay
for the lawyer. It took about $15,000 dollars. Not to—for the lawyer but so much as all the
printing of the court records and so on, the transcripts and everything. It takes a huge amount of
money. I didn’t know, justice isn’t cheap.
And—but I was acquitted by the appeals court. I was sentence to a jail for a year. Only spent
four hours behind bars while my lawyer was getting bail money. I learned a folk song while I
was there.
[00:10:59]
They gave—handed out a lunch of a baloney sandwich and an apple. And the guy next to me
was opening his sandwich and singing: (sings) “If that judge believes what I say, I’ll be leaving
for home today.” Guy next to him says, “Not if he sees your record you won’t.”
(laughter)
No, I’m very, very lucky. And I made living my whole life, my kids never went hungry. And in
the little town where I live, a conservative little upstate New York community, 13,000 people,
the head of the local hardware store, I was building a house for myself, around that, for my
family, which we lived in, have lived in all these years. And he said, “Well, young feller, I don't
know what your opinion is but it’s America. You got a right to your opinion.” And I know he
voted for Goldwater. But he is what I call an old-fashioned conservative.
[00:12:00]
Yes, all of us are lucky, every single one of us for having—thank Thomas Jefferson and Madison
and the others who insisted on putting that First Amendment in. You know—I guess you know
from the history of the Constitution, that this group of rather extraordinary people, they’re mostly
wealthy men, slave owners from the South and merchants from the North. But some of them
were scholars like Madison and some of them were philosophers like Franklin. And after arguing
bitterly, bitterly, they made compromise after compromise and had checks and balances all
through that.
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They weren’t able to get a Bill of Rights written into the Constitution. It couldn’t be agreed on.
So Madison and Jefferson and some of the others said, “Well, we’ll see about that. And they
got—when it came to the states it had to be ratified. And state after state said, “We won’t ratify it
unless you promise to put a Bill of Rights on it right away.” So within a year it got the ten
additional amendments.
[00:13:10]
And that first one I guess you could say was the most important one. I guess some judge said, “If
there is any one, fixed star in our firmament it’s that First Amendment.” I just kind of did not say
the soul of the—that extraordinary piece of paper, a very conservative piece of paper in many
ways. It was not a revolutionary document—trying to see if they wouldn’t need to have
revolutions again.
I’ve been to countries where they do have censors and they didn’t have—I sang in Spain once. I
was—I never thought I’d sing in Spain under Francisco Franco but some people said, “It would
encourage us if you’d come over.” So I sang. One censor had to pass every song that I was going
to sing, the complete words of every song. A different censor passed the words, which were
going to printed in the program, although they’re the same songs. Because it was printed the law
said that a different bureau was in charge of anything printed.
[00:14:17]
These two censors didn’t always agree. I could sing something but couldn’t be printed. Or
something could be printed but I couldn’t sing.
(laughter)
And it was a joke, a terrible joke, a 40-year joke until Franco was gone and they abolished those
rules. I went back to Spain a few day—years later and was able to sing any song I wanted to. I’ve
been, I’ve sung in about 35 other countries of the world, never had anything—experience like
that no matter where I went, anybody telling me what to sing. Of course, there’s always
discussion of what to sing but nobody telling me what to sing. And—
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[00:15:01]
This is really what I’m—thought I’d talk about because let’s not kid ourselves, I don’t think a
single one of us would want to see such freedom of expression that our children or we would
actually be endangered. And it’s real, big, hot arguments now. I’ve censored things. Well, I’ve
been an editor. I don't know really where to draw a line between a censor and an editor. I’ve put
out books of folk songs. And when I came across some of the old folk songs that were very racist
I didn’t put them in, or changed a word here that even—you rarely see, “Oh, Susanna,” put in as
it was originally made, “I’s gwyne to Alabama.” You say, “I’m going to Alabama.”
But the person who really put me onto that was Woodie Guthrie. Woodie had been raised in a
racist atmosphere, a small town in Oklahoma. His father once precip—participated in a lynching.
But Woodie cut loose from his father and went out to California, was singing his Okie songs on a
little radio station. I think he was paid one dollar day, which was pretty good pay in those days.
And he sang an old minstrel show full of that so-called darkie dialect.
[00:16:43]
And he got a letter from a black man the next day who said, “Mr. Guthrie, I believe you mean
well but—or else I wouldn’t bother writing. But I wonder if you realize that that song you sang,”
and he identified it, “is deeply offensive to me and a lot of others like me.” And he went into
detail why. Well, Woodie read the man’s letter on the air after he received it. He said, “Now,
folks,” he says, “I just read you the man’s letter. Now I got in my hand that song I sang to you
the other day. I want you to listen carefully.” (ripping noise)
(laughter)
My guess is we wouldn’t be here if we didn’t in some way use our power to editorialize. If you
had a three-year old girl do you start discussing what rape is with her at that age? No, you wait a
few years. She has to—she must learn sooner or later but you don’t introduce it—I’ve got a
seven-year old grandson who is part African. Am I going to go into detail what a lynching is for
this seven-year old boy?
[00:18:13]
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And so I say that—I once wrote a letter to the editor of the Progressive magazine and said,
“Don’t you realize all editors are basically censors?” You know what A.J. Liebling said when he
wrote the book about the press. He said, “There’s freedom of the press for the person who owns
it.”
(laughter)
Oh, he didn’t go for that at all. He said, “Look,” he said, “censor is something the government
does. I’m an editor.” He didn’t agree with me. But you know what—you remember Justice
Holmes’ famous line was, “Freedom of speech doesn’t give you a right to shout ‘Fire’ in a
crowded theater.” And this world today is full of ever more crowded theaters. What are we going
to do?
[00:19:08]
I think we want to try not to be hypocritical. Let’s face it. We’ve got some very hard decisions to
make. There are some contradictions we face. We don’t want children to have their lives warped
by the wrong kind of information at the wrong time. On the other hand, I don’t think, frankly, a
censor is the way to handle it. Frank Zappa, a musician out on the West Coast is fervently
fighting hard to see that they don’t label phonograph records with the letter R and PG and all
that. It’s kind of silly anyway.
You see the cartoon, the record store owner has got one section full of the R records and over
here the PG records. Nobody is over there buying them. All the people are at the other end of the
store. He said, “Boy! Sales have never been so good.”
(laughter)
[00:20:17]
We want to see freedom of information. We wouldn’t want to see information on how people
could unlock our cars when we lock them on the street. That’s why I sang, “Turn. Turn. Turn.” I
think what’s true and false is often, depends on when—let me take a minute or two to tell you
about one of the extraordinary achievements of the last few years in America, which I don’t
think was widely enough publicized. It was such an extraordinary achievement that I wish it had
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been on the—in the headlines every single day, for nine months as this group of 500 or more
people walked from California to Washington. They called themselves the Great Peace March.
In February 1986 a thousand people had been enticed of this thing by some—a lot of Hollywood
hype, too much. And they found—got—walked for a couple weeks. And they are on the desert,
camped out near Barstow, California when the organization that got them all together went
bankrupt. Their support vehicles were taken by the creditors. There they were, camped out in the
desert. Five hundred went home. Said, “We can’t, this is a fiasco. No hope.”
[00:21:43]
The other 500 said, “Somehow we’re going to make it.” And they got on the telephone. Some of
them mortgaged their homes or their cars or something. And two weeks later they started off. It
wasn’t the money that was the horrendous problem. They woke up to the realization they
disagreed more than they could have believed. They had devoutly religious people on this march,
Catholics, Protestants, Jews. They had devoutly anti-religious people. They had people who
called themselves anarchist and people who called themselves Marxists and all sorts of people.
They had gay lib male and gay lib female. And they had families. There was a school for 40 kids
that had—went—followed the whole trip, kindergarten through high school. And the older
people were always saying to the younger people, “Can’t you dress a little more respectably?
We’re trying to prove that peace is not something to be frightened of and we walk in there
looking like a bunch of kooks.”
[00:22:46]
And next day a bunch of men all walked—oh, yes, they said, “Can’t the women wear dresses, for
example.” The next day a bunch of men all walked wearing dresses.
(laughter)
They ended up having to have three chow lines, carnivores, veggies, and macro biotics.
(laughter)
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The made a number of very important decisions, though. One of them was, they said, “Let’s have
frequent elections.” They voted for their governing body. And every week or two they’d have
another election in case they changed their minds. Even more important they said, “Let’s not use
Robert’s Rules of Order, unless we have to. Let’s try and make decisions by consensus. You
know it’s, Robert’s Rules speed things up but we’ve got a lot of time to talk.” And they did. They
talked and walked and they walked and they talked for nine months.
[00:23:45]
And they didn’t—weren’t able to make all the decision by consensus but most of them. But the
most important decision they made, “Let’s not turn each other off. Let’s agree that we’ll never
stop listening to each other no matter how mad we get at each other.” You know, that one thing
was the most important of all because it was hard to break them up. If they had ever gotten so
mad they would talk to each other, then a provocateur could have easily split them up into two or
more groups. They never would have got to Washington. But they agreed no matter how mad
they got at each other they would always listen.
Curiously enough one of the most effective things was a young German who, about threequarters of the way through the trip walked around with a piece of tape on this mouth. He could
only eat by putting a straw through his mouth. And they’d say, “Heinrich, what’s that for?” He’s
show them a card. I will not take this tape off until I see at least 100 people walking together. We
are too spread out.”
[00:24:45]
He forced the issue to be discussed. Some people liked to get up early. They would walk. Some
people walked later. They were spread out over ten miles along the road. It didn’t look like a
great peace march. Finally, after a month of arguing they came to a compromise. They would
bunch up in the cities but they’d stay spread out in the countryside. And curiously enough when
they came into Washington, even the transvestites start wearing normal clothes.
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And I think that just as they got to Washington that you and I and our families have got a chance
that this human race will survive and that life on earth will survive if we can work our way out of
some of the contradictions.
[00:25:41]
The biggest contradiction right now is one that I’m really not supposed to be entitled to talk
about. I’m not a scientist. I’ve joked a lot about science. And said a long time ago people had
more time before they inven—had so many labor saving devices.
(laughter)
My father, though, who was an old scholar, the last few years of his life he was almost hipped on
this subject. He said, “I’m concerned with value judgements. How do people make value
judgements? What’s good and what’s bad?” And then he realized, he said, “I realized that most
scientists insist that science is neutral. There is no such thing as good or bad science. Science is
science. It’s the jobs done with science that could be good or bad.”
[00:26:41]
And most scientists say it’s nothing but good to have an ever-increasing store of empirical
knowledge. “Ah,” said my father, “if the world were destroyed by the misuse of that knowledge,
could you then say it was a good thing to have been a scientist?” It throws them for a loop. “You
have no right to ask that question. Ask it of anybody but don’t ask it of me.” He insisted on
asking it. And I think he was right to ask it. To me it seems a logical question.
It’s true. Nothing in this world is good or bad but the thinking makes it so. That’s what Hamlet
said to Horatio and I agree. But we’re thinking people. I think anyone of us has a right to think
that science is bad if it puts us in danger of our lives. Einstein himself is supposed to have said,
“Ach! Mankind is not ready for it.” Does that mean that E = MC2 is bad science? Perhaps. And I
tell you how I work it out. I decide that science out of sequence is, is bad.
[00:27:51]
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Now normally in any project you want to have a sequence of steps. You get the—you plan what
you want to do. You number the steps you are going to take. You assemble the tools. You
assemble the materials. You do the job. You test that the job is properly done. Now thalidomide
and the Dalkon Shield are two recent examples of science out of sequence. They put some on the
market before sufficient testing.
Vonnegut, Kurt Vonnegut thinks that there is no hope for us because we have too big brains. I
guess some of you read his book Galapagos. But I think that’s like saying there’s no hope
because we’re—some people are over sexed or there’s no hope because some people are
avaricious and power hungry. He’s saying there’s no hope because people are curious. And I’m
convinced that if this world survives it will be because we face up to this contradiction.
ANNOUNCER: From Boston you have been listening to an archive edition of the New
American Gazette presented by the Ford Hall Forum.
[00:29:17]
SEEGER: There’s hardly a scientist in the world who will go along with this. They say science
is neutral. I sent a copy of this little idea to George Wald, the Nobel Prize winning biologist. And
he sent me a copy of a paper he’d written some years ago. He say, “I used to think I knew the
answer to that question.” And he sent me this paper. He implied that now he’s not sure.
He said, “Is science amoral, the changing ethics of science? I happen to be one of those scientist
who think there is something wrong with napalming peasants. And a few years ago began to
wonder from what base, from what vantage point may a scientist make moral and political
judgements?” And that is what I want to talk about today. In a sense it is my religion, the holy
secular religion of one scientist. Mankind has been engaged throughout history in a ceaseless
struggle to know. Science is a systematic attempt to understand all reality.
[00:30:25]
Reality covers a very wide province, not only such simple things as stones falling and the
structures of atomic nuclei but more complicated things such as poets writing sonnets and people
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praying. Some of those more complicated things I doubt science will ever understand. I used to
think a few years ago, and this question is more current now—I’d find myself in a room full of
physicists and raise the question, should one do everything one can. That seemed to be a new
question then that very few persons had asked. And as soon as you asked it, it seemed as though
to answer, in most person’s mind was, “Yes, of course. Do everything you can.” But the right
answer clearly is, of course, not.
Among all the things one can do, one needs to make a choice of the things that it is good to do,
those things that satisfy the needs and goals and aspirations of one’s society. Who is to make
those judgments?
[00:31:25]
One of our most serious troubles now is that we’ve grown used to having those judgments made
the wrong way. We’ve grown used to having those judgments made almost entirely by the
producers of the technology, by those who see a way to make a profit from it, achieve increased
power through it, or perhaps increase status through it. One should listen carefully to all such
persons. But it is of the utmost importance that those decisions cease to be made by the
producers and begin to be made by those who will have to live with the products, you and me.
I’d mentioned in my letter to George, “What are you going to do about recombinant DNA?” I
don’t really like what I read of Jeremy Rifken. He seems awful, kind of tunnel vision. And I
suspect all tunnel vision whether in scientists or housewives or musicians. But I think he’s gone
onto to something. What would Hitler do if he knew all about recombinant DNA? Have some
scientists work out a bacteria that would kill every dark-skinned person in the world? I don't
know.
[00:32:41]
George said, “My wife and I fought hard against recombinant DNA as a technology. It could
solve certain important biological problems all of us wanted answered but not in that way, not by
messing up three billion years of evolution. We have three, top operators in this field in our
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department at Harvard, each with his own corporation.” Profit-making corporation, I presume.
Harvard has just patented a mouse. The patent covers that kind of manipulation in all animals.
No doctor can cure a patient unless the patient is willing to admit their sick. The first step in
solving any problem is a admitting there is a problem. And my own little paper said, of course
it’s going to take a lot of time, perhaps hundreds of years, perhaps thousands of years to argue
these questions out properly. But what’s that compared to 16 million years before the next
nemesis planet visits us or five billion years till the sun puts an end to the watery planet. Let’s
argue about it. I believe that only lazy people and bad scientists will shy away from such
arguments.
[00:34:21]
Well, I’ve talked long enough and I thought maybe stopping. How long have I kept on, about 25
minutes? I’m going to sing a couple of songs, different kinds.
I’m going to sing an old hymn. Many of you have heard it before. Maybe you don’t know who—
it was written by a sea captain. Of all things this sea captain was a captain of a slave ship. It was
about 200 years ago. The man had been a rank and file seaman and he rose through the ranks,
become a captain. Now he’s a captain and the owners went into the slave trade. The man’s name
was John Newton. This happened about 100 years ago in the middle of the ocean once he turned
his ship 180 degrees around and took those people back to their homes. He went back to
England, became a preacher. And this is just one of the many hymns he wrote.
[00:35:32]
Arlo Guthrie told me this story. He said, “That man is a friend of mine today. That was a long
time ago but he is a friend of mine because he showed us, we can turn the ship around.”
(applause)
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Now some people sing this hymn faster than I do. But I do what they call long-meter style, which
is an old-fashioned southern style of singing. No matter how slow we go, don’t stop singing, just
take a new breath and keep on going. No one will know the difference.
[00:36:10]
SEEGER: Amazing grace, how sweet the sound.
ALL: (singing) Amazing grace.
SEEGER: You’re going too fast.
(laughter)
SEEGER: I’m still on A.
ALL: (singing) Amazing grace,
SEEGER: Where’s the tenors and sopranos?
ALL: (singing) Grace, how sweet—
SEEGER: Where’s the basses? Where the basses and the altos?
ALL: (singing) —the sound
SEEGER: (singing) That saved a wretch like me
ALL: (singing) That saved a wretch—
SEEGER: Where’s the bass part?
ALL: (singing) —Like me.
SEEGER: (singing) I once was lost but now am found
ALL: (singing) I once was lost but now—
SEEGER: Where’s the basses and where’s the altos?
ALL: (singing) I’m found.
SEEGER: (singing) Was blind but now I see.
ALL: (singing) Was blind—
SEEGER: Where’s the bass part?
ALL: (singing) —but now I see.
SEEGER: Shall I be wafted to the sky
ALL: (singing) Shall I be wafted to the sky
SEEGER: On flowery beds of ease
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ALL: (singing) On flowery beds of ease
SEEGER: While others strive to win the prize
ALL: (singing) While others strive to win the prize
SEEGER: And sail through bloody seas
ALL: (singing) And sail—
SEEGER: Don’t hear those basses.
ALL: (singing) —Through bloody seas.
[00:40:00]
SEEGER: We don’t have quite enough basses. I think it’s because that was in too low a key.
We’re going to raise up a little higher. Let’s try that first verse again. Remember, there’s no such
thing as a wrong note as long as you’re singing.
(applause)
SEEGER: Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
ALL: (singing) Amazing grace, how sweet the sound
SEEGER: That saved a wretch like me
ALL: (singing) That saved a wretch like me
SEEGER: I once was lost but now I’m found
ALL: (singing) I once was lost but now I’m found
SEEGER: Was blind but now I see
ALL: (singing) Was blind but now I see.
(applause)
[00:42:27]
SEEGER: Incidentally, I had a whole lot of things I was going to say to you but I didn’t get the
time to say them. I was going to say that, remember Ben Franklin’s great line, “Love your
enemies”. They teach to you your faults.” Remember Rabbi Hillel about 2,000 years ago with
three short lines of wisdom, “If I am not for myself, who will be. If I’m only for myself, what am
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I? If not now, when?” Remember the English philosopher, Alfred North Whitehead. I once saw
him give a lecture when I was at Harvard. He says, “One should try not to speak more clearly
than one thinks.”
(laughter)
This is one I also remember. In 1957 the great Soviet novelist Ilya Ehrenburg was in Buenos
Aires. And a newspaper reporter asked him, “Mr. Ehrenburg, how do you account for the terrible
things that went on under Stalin?” This was only a year after Khrushchev gave his speech about
Stalin. Ehrenburg said, “Well, we found it was easier to get rid of the capitalists than to get rid of
the damn fools.”
(laughter)
[00:44:14]
When you think globally and act locally, sometimes maybe very, very local—E.B. White wrote a
little poem when he had to go away on another trip. And he gave it to his wife.
(sings) The spider, dropping down from twig,
Unfolds a plan of her devising,
A thin premeditated rig
To use in rising.
And all that journey down through space,
In cool defense and loyal hearted,
She spins a ladder to the place
From where she started.
Thus I, gone forth as spiders do
In spider's web a truth discerning,
Attach one silken strand to you
For my returning.
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[00:46:02]
SEEGER: Before I go I’m going to sing the most recent song I’ve been able to put together. The
tune, actually, I’ve had for almost 25 years. I whistle it mostly. About 25 years ago I learned how
to flutter with (whistles). It’s not hard. What you do is pull your tongue back and then you push,
you, well you flatten your tongue so the sides of your tongue touch the sides of your lower teeth
and front of your tongue is the back of your front teeth on the bottom. So, in effect, your tongue
cuts off, all of a sudden, a little bit of air at the bottom. So instead of being this (whistles). You
don’t do like that, because that’s your just brining the middle of your tongue up to the roof of
your mouth.
(laughter)
You keep your tongue far away from the roof of your mouth (whistles). It becomes broad.
[00:46:56]
AUDIENCE: (whistling)
(laughter)
SEEGER: (whistles). Anyway I whistle this tune.
(whistles) I even had an idea for a music video of this.
(laughter)
I sent it, the idea, into Sesame Street but they didn’t reply. I don’t, I don’t know. I called for a
little roly-poly guy who is really a dancer walking down the street whistling this tune maybe
kicking at a garbage can in rhythm as he goes down. And a kid sitting on a stoop sees him and
grins. And the man sticks out his hand and the kid grabs it. And then another kid joins him. By
the time they get to the edge of, end of this one little melody, it only takes 34 seconds I know,
because I timed it, they’ve got three or four kids there.
[00:48:19]
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All of a sudden they come to one of these little graveyards like you can sometimes see in an old
city like Boston or Philadelphia or New York, in between two brick buildings, there’s a little
graveyard. And the camera zooms in on a grave stone. Maybe says, “Katerina von Trump. Born
18—1790. Died 1795.” The kids look at it and they suddenly grow serious. And the man sings.
(sings) Whistling past a graveyard is not a foolish thing
When all of the world appears to be coming apart at the seam.
And who can tell for sure what’ll be next to go.
Did you ever think that Tricky Dick would leave like he did?
Whistling past a graveyard, I’ll keep on whistling.
And if you want you can whistle along.
For who knows just how many more might like to try the melody
And whistle a similar song.
(whistles)
And whistle a similar song.
[00:49:22]
SEEGER: And now the little guy starts down the street again with the kids. And they’re
whistling this tune. And they turn a corner and suddenly instead of city street there’s the Eiffel
tower there and a bunch of French kids come out to join them. They turn the corner and there’s a
pagoda there and a bunch of Chinese or Japanese kids come out to join them. They turn a corner,
there’s the pyramid of Egypt and some Egyptian kids come out to join them. They turn a corner
and there’ St. Basel’s cathedral, a bunch of Russian kids come out to join them. They turn a
corner there’s a pueblo out in New Mexico. A bunch of Native American kids come out to join
them.
[00:49:57]
All of a sudden there is Sugarloaf Mountain in Rio de Janeiro. And a bunch of black Brazilian
kids come out to join them. Now there’s 50 or 100 kids all gathered around. And now they’re on
the beach. Laurie Wyatt lives over in Northampton helped me write this verse. He did most of it.
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(sings) Whistling by the seashore upon a windy day.
A look at the breakers trying to drown out my song.
The sea gulls laugh as they glide past
And sand castles all around come tumbling down
Whistling by the seashore, I’ll keep on whistling
And if you want you can whistle along
The ocean may be wide but on the other side
There’s lots of people whistling a similar song.
(whistles)
Oh, you know what? This is what you can do on video. There’s a cutaway to a woman in Japan
in elegant costume playing the Koto (makes sound). And then—
(sings) —whistling a similar song.
There’s a cutaway to a family in Guatemala, all playing one marimba (makes sound).
(sings) Whistling a similar song.
It goes to a European symphony orchestra all in white tie and tails (makes sound)
(sings) Whistling a similar song.
Maybe in India where they have these tuned tea cups (makes sound)
(sings) Whistling a similar song.
[00:51:24]
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SEEGER: Maybe some steel drums. Lord know what they have. Finally, the last time it’s the
birds in the tree. You can do this if you cut up the tape and scissor it and do tricks with it. And
the birds are all singing (whistles).
(sings) Whistling a similar song.
SEEGER: And the last thing you hear is the ocean wave (makes sound).
Well, if anybody wants to try whistling this tune with me, you’re welcome to try it tonight before
we go home. You’ll find it’s a lot of fun, although people will sometimes look at you and say,
“What you so happy about?” Try it.
(all whistling)
(applause)
MODERATOR: Thank you. Thank you. Pete Seeger.
(applause)
[00:53:37]
SEEGER:
(sings) One blue sky above us
One ocean lapping all our shore
One earth so green and round
Who could ask for more?
SEEGER: And because I love you
ALL: (singing) And because I love you
SEEGER: I’ll give it one more try
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ALL: (singing) I’ll give it one more try.
SEEGER: To show my rainbow race
ALL: (singing) To show my rainbow race
SEEGER: It's too soon to die.
ALL: (singing) It’s too soon to die.
SEEGER: (sings) Some folks want to be like an ostrich,
Bury their heads in the sand.
Some hope that plastic dreams
Can unclench all those greedy hands.
Some hope to take the easy way:
Poisons, bombs. They think we need 'em.
Don't you know you can't kill all the unbelievers?
There's no shortcut to freedom.
SEEGER: One blue sky above us
ALL: (singing) One blue sky above us
SEEGER: One ocean lapping all our shore
ALL: (singing) One ocean lapping all our shore
SEEGER: One earth so green and round
ALL: (singing) One earth so green and round
SEEGER: Who could ask for more?
ALL: (singing) Who could ask for more?
SEEGER: And because I love you
ALL: (singing) And because I love you
SEEGER: Give it one more try
ALL: (singing) I’ll give it one more try
SEEGER: Show my rainbow race
ALL: (singing) To show my rainbow race
SEEGER: Too soon to die.
ALL: (singing) It’s too soon to die
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SEEGER: (sings) Go tell, go tell all the little children.
Tell all the mothers and fathers too.
Now's our last chance to learn to share
What's been given to me and you.
ALL: (singing) One blue sky above us
SEEGER: One ocean
ALL: (singing) One ocean lapping all our shores
SEEGER: One earth
ALL: (singing) One earth so green and round
SEEGER: Who could ask
ALL: (singing) Who could ask for more
SEEGER: And because I love you
ALL: (singing) And because I love you
SEEGER: Give it one more try
ALL: (singing) Give it one more try
SEEGER: To show my rainbow race
ALL: (singing) To show my rainbow race
SEEGER: It's too soon to die.
ALL: (singing) It’s too soon to die
[00:56:24]
SEEGER: One blue sky above us
ALL: (singing) One blue sky above us
SEEGER: One ocean
ALL: (singing) One ocean lapping all our shore
SEEGER: One earth
ALL: (singing) One earth so green and round
Who could ask for more
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MS113.0082 Transcript
(applause)
ANNOUCER: You have been listening to an archive edition of the New American Gazette from
Boston’s Ford Hall Forum. The New American Gazette was produced by Deborah Stavro with
post-production engineers Roger Baker, Brian Sabo and Anthony di Bartalo. The New American
Gazette was produced in cooperation with the nation's presidential libraries, the National
Archives and Northeastern University.
To purchase a copy of this program or receive information about the 2006 spring season of the
Forum, please call 617-373-5800 or visit www.fordhallforum.org. Thank you for joining us.
END OF RECORDING
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